tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post90243066091530684..comments2023-09-08T11:09:50.037-05:00Comments on Souly Catholic H.S.: Grades, grades, and more grades!Charlie Royhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09335346223868916197noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-49997632756670674632011-06-04T04:45:52.835-05:002011-06-04T04:45:52.835-05:00I've been reading your articles and they are v...I've been reading your articles and they are very helpful with teachers like us. It's very inspiring and the tips are very useful. Kudos!Car Servicing Dublinhttp://companyfinder.ie/car_servicing_rathcoole_dublin.htmlnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-76910265246327115062008-06-10T17:20:00.000-05:002008-06-10T17:20:00.000-05:00Though my K-12 school did have grades, they were d...Though my K-12 school did have grades, they were de-emphasized. In the lower school (through 8th grade), the ratings were Excellent, Good, Passing, and Unsatisfactory. All grades were accompanied by narrative comments from the teachers. <BR/><BR/>We earned the usual A,B,C,D,F (+, -) in the upper school, still accompanied by narrative comments from each teacher and an overview from the dean. <BR/><BR/>As evidence of how well this system works, I still have an evaluation sheet from fourth grade and a report card from 9th grade and still get a swell of good feeling from them.Barbara Ruth Saundershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01799097040002221934noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-61212310067615113342008-06-01T22:12:00.000-05:002008-06-01T22:12:00.000-05:00@JoonI remember reading your blog post on the grad...@Joon<BR/>I remember reading your blog post on the grading topic. Very insightful. <BR/>@Clay<BR/>Reading Kohn this summer sounds great to me. I've never had the chance to sit down and read his full works just an article here or there. Jesus the great teacher and the Gospels have a lot of fuel for a look at pedagogy. Speaking of class size it is interesting how he chose 12 for the most intense work. Seems to be a good student to teacher ratio. As far as breaking down the class size I do agree it would be rather "atypical" and perhaps my dreams would take a radical restructuring that is anything but typical to be accomplished. <BR/>@Nate<BR/>I realize there are performance benchmarks that indicate if one is doing there job or not but I have to believe these indicators are used to gage performance not as an indicator of learning. The problem is looking at grades as signs of learning. They are not necessarily correlated. In terms of where all the intrinsic motivation for teachers and learners will come from I can't really say. I'll have to think a little longer on that one.Charlie Royhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09335346223868916197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-78988214423445674162008-06-01T16:34:00.000-05:002008-06-01T16:34:00.000-05:00I've always liked Alfy Kohn as well...There is in ...I've always liked Alfy Kohn as well...There is in me a great desire to want for a classroom where learning is the great motivator and distractions like grades fall off the wayside...But then I look around and ask myself: in what major human activity is there something equivalent to class without grades? Businesses pay you and fire you and evaluate you. Artists keep score with reputations and commissions. Musicians compare records sold or audience sizes...Maybe love and dating? No one grades your kissing, at least not directly. <BR/><BR/>Imagine the pressure put on a teacher without grading. Everything would have to be intrinsically interesting. Aren't some scaffolding or intermediate learning situations less than fun but they lead us into the fun stuff. How do people get motivated to do them?Natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17898116190278560475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-46440735656695691772008-06-01T08:17:00.000-05:002008-06-01T08:17:00.000-05:00Ahh, Charlie, I re-read your comment, and your cry...Ahh, Charlie, I re-read your comment, and your cry for "help" seems hopeless because you say you're trying to envision a "typical high school experience without grades."<BR/><BR/>Any high school without grades is not typical, right? And any high school with teacher-student ratios below 1:10 also atypical. <BR/><BR/>So to me, the problem is that typical high schools can't work. But the Kohn article you link to suggests otherwise (or was that link in Bill Farren's comment?).CBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11236657531187596253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-6491585962241121562008-06-01T07:22:00.000-05:002008-06-01T07:22:00.000-05:00Hi Charlie,Great post that hits a question I'm goi...Hi Charlie,<BR/><BR/>Great post that hits a question I'm going to spend the summer exploring too. Maybe we can read Kohn and otherwise research the issue, and fire up Skype for some podcast conversations. I have the feeling I'd like speaking with you as much as I like writing with you.<BR/><BR/>Every time I read the Gospels, I'm always struck how Jesus gives authentic feedback to his disciples by seemingly banging his palm against his forehead and saying, "Jeez, don't you guys get my parables? Don't you have ears to hear?" In my memory, he seems to have felt his "students" were about as adept at interpreting his lessons as my own are when we read poems and fiction together. (And have you heard the interpretation of the "Peter, upon this rock I'll build my church" line was actually Jesus punning on the name Peter, which etymologically relates to "rock" - think 'petrified'- but I'm sure you know this one. I've always liked the hints of irony and even sarcasm some of the Gospel writers give when characterizing Jesus.)<BR/><BR/>To the point of your post, though: It's eye-opening that the whole purpose of grades was to increase class size so teachers could earn more by "teaching" more students at a time. <BR/><BR/>To me, class size is the other damnable impediment to effective teaching-and-learning. As a friend of mine in California shared with me recently: "1 teacher, 30 students: You do the math." It's impossible to effectively teach more than a handful of students - I'd say five to ten - and grading doesn't solve the problem.<BR/><BR/>We need to expand the "radical" critique beyond Kohn's anti-grade crusade to include an anti-large class size campaign as well.<BR/><BR/>Large class sizes plus the GPA game transforms students into grade-junkies, and teachers into mere graders. My evidence: I've had about 50 students ask to meet to discuss their grade this year, and how they can raise it. I've had three ask to meet to discuss how to write better, read poetry better, or otherwise "learn from teacher." My take-away: they see me as a grade-giver, and school as an instrument for getting them into college, not a place to learn.<BR/><BR/>End of comment, except: I can't tell you how cool it was to discover Joon's comment as I read this post. He's a student from my school here in Korea :)CBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11236657531187596253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-21520006068606847592008-05-11T10:05:00.000-05:002008-05-11T10:05:00.000-05:00hello, I am a student from Korea International Sch...hello, I am a student from Korea International School.<BR/>Your blog post has a lot to do what Alfie Kohn said. He's one of those guys that support getting rid of grades.<BR/>You should read my blog post "Grades are like Drugs to Asians!" I wrote the same topic from an Asian's point of view.<BR/>My blog address is joonplee.kiswrites.org<BR/><BR/>-JoonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-11546312401998356532008-05-09T06:20:00.000-05:002008-05-09T06:20:00.000-05:00@BillI think I will pick those books up as part of...@Bill<BR/>I think I will pick those books up as part of my summer reading. I hear his arguments bantered around and it is probably time I read them thoroughly. One instructional strategy that I despise is that of "busy work". I've never understood why a teacher would give an assignment for a completion grade that they have absolutely no intention of ever looking at. Strange strange.Charlie Royhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09335346223868916197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-69074508084254389992008-05-08T20:01:00.000-05:002008-05-08T20:01:00.000-05:00Hi Charlie: You might want to take a look at Alfie...Hi Charlie: You might want to take a look at Alfie Kohn's books "The Schools Our Children Deserve" and "No Contest". Sure, his ideas are radical, but that's just because he doesn't let what seems to be the prevailing "common sense" of the day get in the way of his beautifully-elaborated arguments. He shows, through meticulous logic and research, how grades impede learning and diminish the act of discovery to mere point-mongering and rank-chasing.<BR/>Maybe a good question for all of us to ask is, "Am I only giving grades for this task because it's so odious that otherwise students would not do it or not do it well?" If the answer is "yes", then I think the culprit becomes evident: unengaging, unmeaningful curriculum.<BR/>I think that Jesus would not have needed to give grades since what he taught was inherently useful and engaging--no sticks and carrots needed! <BR/>Be well, BillAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-52649821647363206192008-05-05T21:48:00.000-05:002008-05-05T21:48:00.000-05:00I've been trying to wrap my mind around what the t...I've been trying to wrap my mind around what the typical high school experience would look like without grades and I must say I am coming up blank. Someone help!Charlie Royhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09335346223868916197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6687006572035258991.post-21671189582824530352008-05-04T21:14:00.000-05:002008-05-04T21:14:00.000-05:00I only started reading the piece, and I read this ...I only started reading the piece, and I read this nugget:<BR/><BR/>"Researchers have found three consistent effects of using – and especially, emphasizing the importance of – letter or number grades."<BR/><BR/>The key is to avoid emphasizing grades. Grades are fine, as long as they are understood to be general guidelines, or at the very least they are a necessary evil.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com